As a follow up to the article on http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... tml?page=1
"Gravity and mathematics alone, Palmer suggests, imply that the invariant set of the universe should have a similarly intricate structure, and that the universe is trapped forever in this subset of all possible states."
"Many details still need to be fleshed out, says Coecke. "Palmer manages to explain some quantum phenomena," he says, "but he hasn't yet derived the whole rigid structure of the theory. This is really necessary.""
"Because black holes destroy information, Palmer suggests that the universe has an invariant set too, though it is far more complicated than the pendulum."
"Ever since Einstein, many physicists have hoped that a new approach might go beyond quantum theory and find a way to restore belief in objective and independent properties."
My repudiations:
1. Firstly, the universe cannot destroy information, but that information only changes forms.
2. A rough sketchy idea doesn't constitute a breakthrough in the field, particularly judging by mainstream physics' anal-retentive fabrications. The deceptively pleasing outcome that the universe ought to have a single invariant set represented by some weird, unimaginable fractal is ludicrous. The universe IS every fractal, every vibration and everything ever conceived by us (or any races of greater intelligence).
3. The trouble with science is that it is riddled with the same extremist dogmas as religion, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. Why this dogged belief in the objective? Our culture, social idiosyncrasies and humanity are worth nothing, all owing to our unwavering quest to agree on a shared reality with maximum objectivity. Does that make the acid raver's hallucinations or the psychotics delusions any less real, when viewed from within their frame of reference?
I'd welcome a debate about this!
skand1nsky
hunter
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:34 am
Location: London
Thursday, February 9, 2012
Beebop
Hiya Rob,
Thanks indeed for the response --- yes I did stumble on Tim Palmer's description in New Scientist, and it kind of struck me as absurd that one would want to use an invariant state to describe the underlying fabric of the universe. While the invariant set of a chaotic system is definitely a fractal, it flies in the face of the holistic approach, especially the one pioneered by David Bohm.
I don't think one ought ever to treat a system as reducible and in isolation, and especially NOT the universe, since it is a conglomeration and superposition of every possible state. On the other hand, as this forum is testament to, we are now looking for academic boundaries to be broken, and to unify spiritualism, science, metaphysics, philosophy, the arts and consciousness in a broad framework. We're talking about a web of interconnectedness, without sectioning findings into pigeonholed boxes. I reckon there's a few cosmologists who had better embark on some genre-hopping before getting too bogged down by the process of due diligence.
In the same way that Bohm illustrated a technique in which there are no such things as fundamental constants or irreducible quantities, it makes sense to talk about a homogeneous approach to fractal behaviour which is unifying and not standing alone.
Thanks indeed for the response --- yes I did stumble on Tim Palmer's description in New Scientist, and it kind of struck me as absurd that one would want to use an invariant state to describe the underlying fabric of the universe. While the invariant set of a chaotic system is definitely a fractal, it flies in the face of the holistic approach, especially the one pioneered by David Bohm.
I don't think one ought ever to treat a system as reducible and in isolation, and especially NOT the universe, since it is a conglomeration and superposition of every possible state. On the other hand, as this forum is testament to, we are now looking for academic boundaries to be broken, and to unify spiritualism, science, metaphysics, philosophy, the arts and consciousness in a broad framework. We're talking about a web of interconnectedness, without sectioning findings into pigeonholed boxes. I reckon there's a few cosmologists who had better embark on some genre-hopping before getting too bogged down by the process of due diligence.
In the same way that Bohm illustrated a technique in which there are no such things as fundamental constants or irreducible quantities, it makes sense to talk about a homogeneous approach to fractal behaviour which is unifying and not standing alone.
Chatter box
The last post set my mind racing, so let me unleash my barrage now, quick, before the thought escapes:
As anyone who has sampled entheogens, hallucinogens or even transcendental meditation would testify, all the characteristics of a point of singularity (including its paradoxes) manifest themselves in states of higher consciousness. How can something infinitely small be infinitely dense and hot? How can something spring from nothingness? In the same manner of speaking, transcendental bliss is a solipsism so deep that it's actually unsolipsistic, is a mind so great that it is sheer mindlessness, is a moment so eternal that it is timeless.
The human brain is the ultimate transdimensional conduit, and the self-sustaining wormhole that is your mind is looping in onto itself recursively, strangely, looking at itself look at itself till infinity. We don't need to employ 'physical' phenomena like teleportation or matter / anti-matter collisions to access other dimensions: we have all the tools within us, prepared for us by Nature herself (and the occasional psychoactive substance wouldn't go amiss either).
There was a time when I would never profess the use of certain drugs, owing to the misfortune of a few horrendous acid freakouts over the years. However, follow-up experiences on mushrooms, 2C-I and derivatives of mescaline have reinformed my own internal debate. Entheogenic awareness is by far the most powerful capacity of itself that the mind can comprehend, and the knowledge that you are your own God is as humbling as it is enriching.
There's one way I usually like to picture reality as we know it: the universe is infinitely systematised in all directions, and we are entirely contained within all the systems there are. Paradoxically, the Whole flows through our very essence. It is a beautiful concept: the convergence of Eastern mysticism, Western philosophy, holistic arts and sciences and the spiritual awakening of mankind.
If only it were that simple...
As anyone who has sampled entheogens, hallucinogens or even transcendental meditation would testify, all the characteristics of a point of singularity (including its paradoxes) manifest themselves in states of higher consciousness. How can something infinitely small be infinitely dense and hot? How can something spring from nothingness? In the same manner of speaking, transcendental bliss is a solipsism so deep that it's actually unsolipsistic, is a mind so great that it is sheer mindlessness, is a moment so eternal that it is timeless.
The human brain is the ultimate transdimensional conduit, and the self-sustaining wormhole that is your mind is looping in onto itself recursively, strangely, looking at itself look at itself till infinity. We don't need to employ 'physical' phenomena like teleportation or matter / anti-matter collisions to access other dimensions: we have all the tools within us, prepared for us by Nature herself (and the occasional psychoactive substance wouldn't go amiss either).
There was a time when I would never profess the use of certain drugs, owing to the misfortune of a few horrendous acid freakouts over the years. However, follow-up experiences on mushrooms, 2C-I and derivatives of mescaline have reinformed my own internal debate. Entheogenic awareness is by far the most powerful capacity of itself that the mind can comprehend, and the knowledge that you are your own God is as humbling as it is enriching.
There's one way I usually like to picture reality as we know it: the universe is infinitely systematised in all directions, and we are entirely contained within all the systems there are. Paradoxically, the Whole flows through our very essence. It is a beautiful concept: the convergence of Eastern mysticism, Western philosophy, holistic arts and sciences and the spiritual awakening of mankind.
If only it were that simple...
Chatter
As a newbie to this forum, I'm still in the process of taking in the immensity of the set of views and counterpoints demonstrated by this community -- you guys have completely convinced me that there are still people out there asking all the right questions. There really is hope for the spiritual absolution of our species.
As a former physicist driven to disillusionment by the narrow-minded fornications of old school academia, it has come as an awakening for me that I can now venture my cogitations for consideration, without feeling as though the guillotine of scientific reprobation is about to seamlessly slice through my neck.
I'm personally quite enchanted by the 10-dimension theory, particularly it sounds so elegant, but also because addresses timelessness, mindlessness and higher consciousness so effortlessly. Of course, it should all be crystal clear and make perfect sense -- and yet, the fog of uncertainty ceases to relent.
We have thus far established the holographic nature of the universe, but there has been no mention of its fractal behaviour. As far as we know, the universe is both a fractal and a hologram, differentiated by either self-similarity or self-identity respectively. But this distinction leads to an interesting quandary: if geometrical objects like the Koch snowflake, coastlines or fractal broccoli are real and have fractional dimensions, then couldn't we conceive of beings existing in d=0.618? Of course, their paths would be folded through d=1.618 (Phi), and they will destined to be forever wandering aimlessly along the Golden Spiral.
The trouble with Rob's 10-dimensional exposition is largely in that considering that all possibilities are contained within the 'Infinity' as pertaining to your seventh dimension, there are possibilities of worlds contained within any dimension, be it integer, fractional, negative or imaginary. Which brings me to my basic premise:
REALITY IS PERCEPTION, BUT IMAGINATION IS OUR REALITY
If we can mathematically, visually, even abstractly visualise or conceive of alternative realities (be it in different planes, futures or manifolds), then they EXIST. Even if that commonplace chemically jumbled up construction that exists in 4-D (the brain) is consciously or otherwise generating a possibility, then that eventuality has occurred. The concept of 'thoughtspace' isn't new -- it is as real as 'probability space' and is clearly the medium through which memes propagate through mutation and self-replication. In that case, it doesn't matter in what dimension you exist; what is really relevant here is that you, like that fractal and hologram, are a part of that unified wholeness of being, a cosmic consciousness, and that the whole universe (or multiple universes) is embedded and enfolded within you. It is an awe-inspiring and terrifying thought.
An aside on post-mortality and the eternal nature of the soul -- death states have often been likened to dreamlike existence. People calling themselves 'Oneironauts', who practice the art of lucid dreaming, echo shamans when they say that the soul continues to exist in a timeless state. If timelessness is the cloth that embroiders our veil of past, present & future, then please wrap me up in it.
Hope to contribute more soon!
Sk.
skand1nsky
hunter
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:34 am
Location: London
As a former physicist driven to disillusionment by the narrow-minded fornications of old school academia, it has come as an awakening for me that I can now venture my cogitations for consideration, without feeling as though the guillotine of scientific reprobation is about to seamlessly slice through my neck.
I'm personally quite enchanted by the 10-dimension theory, particularly it sounds so elegant, but also because addresses timelessness, mindlessness and higher consciousness so effortlessly. Of course, it should all be crystal clear and make perfect sense -- and yet, the fog of uncertainty ceases to relent.
We have thus far established the holographic nature of the universe, but there has been no mention of its fractal behaviour. As far as we know, the universe is both a fractal and a hologram, differentiated by either self-similarity or self-identity respectively. But this distinction leads to an interesting quandary: if geometrical objects like the Koch snowflake, coastlines or fractal broccoli are real and have fractional dimensions, then couldn't we conceive of beings existing in d=0.618? Of course, their paths would be folded through d=1.618 (Phi), and they will destined to be forever wandering aimlessly along the Golden Spiral.
The trouble with Rob's 10-dimensional exposition is largely in that considering that all possibilities are contained within the 'Infinity' as pertaining to your seventh dimension, there are possibilities of worlds contained within any dimension, be it integer, fractional, negative or imaginary. Which brings me to my basic premise:
REALITY IS PERCEPTION, BUT IMAGINATION IS OUR REALITY
If we can mathematically, visually, even abstractly visualise or conceive of alternative realities (be it in different planes, futures or manifolds), then they EXIST. Even if that commonplace chemically jumbled up construction that exists in 4-D (the brain) is consciously or otherwise generating a possibility, then that eventuality has occurred. The concept of 'thoughtspace' isn't new -- it is as real as 'probability space' and is clearly the medium through which memes propagate through mutation and self-replication. In that case, it doesn't matter in what dimension you exist; what is really relevant here is that you, like that fractal and hologram, are a part of that unified wholeness of being, a cosmic consciousness, and that the whole universe (or multiple universes) is embedded and enfolded within you. It is an awe-inspiring and terrifying thought.
An aside on post-mortality and the eternal nature of the soul -- death states have often been likened to dreamlike existence. People calling themselves 'Oneironauts', who practice the art of lucid dreaming, echo shamans when they say that the soul continues to exist in a timeless state. If timelessness is the cloth that embroiders our veil of past, present & future, then please wrap me up in it.
Hope to contribute more soon!
Sk.
skand1nsky
hunter
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:34 am
Location: London
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